Boldr recently featured in a new episode of the Outsource Accelerator Podcast to delve into the world of ethical outsourcing and explore how business process outsourcing (BPO) companies can grow sustainably while making a positive impact. In this special episode, Derek Gallimore, Outsource Accelerator’s founder, conversed with Mari Parker, Boldr’s President and COO.
In this conversation, Mari Parker shares how Boldr is revolutionizing the outsourcing industry with our impact agenda of prioritizing ethical practices, employee well-being, and community development. Mari honed in on some of the strategies we employ to ensure that our outsourcing services not only meet the highest standards of quality and efficiency but also contribute positively to the social and economic development of the communities we operate in.
Throughout the chat, Mari emphasizes the importance of creating value-driven partnerships, fostering talent development and wellbeing, and maintaining transparency with clients. She highlights how Boldr’s approach to ethical outsourcing has enabled us to build a robust and sustainable business model that benefits all stakeholders involved.
Tune in to learn more about the innovative ways Boldr is setting new benchmarks in the outsourcing industry. Whether you are a business leader looking to outsource responsibly or an advocate for ethical business practices, this conversation is packed with valuable insights and practical advice for you.
Listen to the full podcast by clicking the player below, or you can follow the full transcript of the conversation. Join us as we explore the transformative potential of ethical outsourcing.
Hosted by outsourcing expert Derek Gallimore, the Outsource Accelerator Podcast is a leading resource for businesses seeking to navigate the world of outsourcing. Each episode delves into comprehensive outsourcing information, featuring expert advice and practical implementation strategies.
Follow our notes on this conversation for a deeper dive into Episode 491: High Growth Ethical Outsourcing at Scale with Boldr's COO and President, Mari Parker.
Derek Gallimore: Hi, and welcome back to the show. Today I am joined by Mari Parker. She is the President and Chief Operating Officer of Boldr Impact. Boldr does things a little bit differently. They are a B Corp, and they are highly guided by ethical outsourcing.
So Mari, we've had your founder and CEO on the show previously, and you are the president and COO of Boldr. We were just talking before the show, and it's amazing what you have done in the last six years, but also in the last couple of years, and it's good to look back and see the progress you made.
Do you want to give us a quick elevator introduction to Boldr and what you stand for as a company?
Mari Parker: Boldr is the largest global B Corp certified outsourcing company. We help companies, especially in the US and in Europe, build their global teams with a very intentional ethical lens. We exist to help people grow and connect to connected opportunities with talent around the world.
We've really chosen to go deep in certain markets. We're in the Philippines, Mexico, South Africa and Canada right now and looking to expand to maybe one or two more geographies in the next couple of years, but not as intentionally going broad as we're going deep in the market that we're in.
Derek: You spend a lot of time focusing on the culture, how is it managing 1500 staff, largely remote across four countries?
Mari: When David started his first outsourcing company, he learned a lot from that experience. It was really clear that there's a better way to do this. There's a way to approach outsourcing and the industry without having to marginalize the team member and the community in the transaction. So we've been very intentional about making it clear that our team members and the community are two of the three key stakeholders in our business.
We design the company and our approach around our clients, our team members, and the community. And those are our three key stakeholders that we designed everything around.
If you were to picture this as a flywheel type of situation, the way we're approaching it is that we invest in attracting and retaining the best talent, which would mean that we deliver an incredible service, which means that we continue to grow with our existing clients and our growth; our existing clients bleed into growth as new clients as well, and it allows us to continue to make an impact on the community.
We always start with our team members, understanding the impact that has on our ability to deliver amazing services. Our overall growth in the last couple of years, like more than 60 percent of our growth, has come from existing clients, which to me is a great metric to show that we are delivering good service and we are delivering excellence, and it's working.
I think to establish a culture, you have to start with your values, be clear on what your values are, and be intentional about incorporating your values into everything that you do as a business, into everything you do, and into how you show up as leaders. So we've put a lot of work into that. It started off very simple, and we'd like to work with people who are curious, dynamic, and authentic, and those are our three core values.
Derek: I get approached by a lot of founders trying to start BPOs, and a lot of them have this concept that we're going to treat staff right. And it's going to be a staff-first organization. And I think that has a lot of assumptions in it.
It's often, and I actually believe the outsourcing industry generally treats its staff well. You can't have 100,000 staff and not be staff-centric. And also, I think it comes from a slight point of naivety in that they haven't actually built companies before; they haven't managed people before.
And so, of course, you have this rosy outlook that we're going to be this cooperative staff, and everyone's going to be happy. But I think when rubber hits the road, it's really, really hard, isn't it, to coordinate so many people across so many different cultures and so many different interest groups and things like that? And what I tend to find as well is that it can sometimes work for a small group of 50 or 100 when it's still a tight community.
But as you expand, it gets harder. But it seems with Boldr, you're now reaching large numbers, and it's feasible.
Mari: If you step out of certain bounds, you're not going to fit in, and this is not going to be a conducive relationship, and it's going to be difficult for us to work together. So if you're really opposing the values of the business in a way that's disruptive to business, that's something you're going to have to take care of. But that would be, I think, in any company, regardless of your culture, there's going to be moments where, hey, this is out of line and this is not going to work.
But if you have those individuals that are just there to earn a living, and it's kind of nice that the company is nice, but that's not the reason for them to be there, I think it's okay for there to be a certain cohort in your organization that's in that bucket. I wouldn't obsess over it, and I wouldn't be discriminatory at the risk of being discriminatory in your hiring practices. I think there's space for all of it.
It makes me think of one of the things my dad used to tell me: whenever my sister, my mom, or I would gossip or complain about people or talk about people, my dad would take a moment and be like, Mari, it takes all sorts of people to make the world go around, even people like you and me. And so I think for me personally, it's creating a space of inclusivity, a space where people can find a sense of belonging, and then trusting that the individuals will navigate that opportunity and that access in a way that is thoughtful and intentional. I mean, that's how I would think about that.
Mari: There's a book called The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, and we've made an effort to have all of our leaders go through certain, at least entry-level, training to understand the concept of conscious leadership and at least understand the first four commitments. And then, over time, we went deeper and deeper with our leadership team. Because I do think it starts with the first-line leaders in your company, they will inevitably have the biggest impact on how your culture is perceived.
And so being intentional about investing in those individuals is super important. One of the other things that we've invested in is Clifton Strength. So, when you step into a leadership position at Boldr, you get to do your strengths profile, and you get to understand your 34 strengths and what's in your top 10.
And then you go through a coaching exercise, and we've got internal coaches that will take a team member through understanding what their strengths are and how they can lean into their strengths in their team, in their work, and in their lives. And always the intention of just creating space for them to, again, find that connection to purpose and just feel good about the work that they're doing. I think we need to remember that this is supposed to be fun.
Derek: It depends so much on the roles as well. Because often that can impact, there's some really green roles happening in a lot of call centers. And I think if you do have those roles, it's really hard to have a happy, buoyant team doing them. You know what I mean. Does some of that help in terms of the roles that you work with and select?
Mari: I resonate with that deeply. And we have definitely been in a position where we've had clients or pieces of business that are just yucky. And the work that the team does is yucky, and the intentions of the organization are not aligned with our values.
So this is where being a self-funded company really works for you because you feel a little bit more in control of your own destiny with something like that. And we've been intentional. I mean, I'll be honest, there were moments, and I think anybody who starts a BPO should just be aware that you'll get yourself caught in these moments where you're like, I can't let go of this business.
I really need this revenue, but it's not a company that I want to work with in the long run. And we use that as fuel and inspiration to grow to a point where we can divest from it. And the celebration and appreciation we got from our team was inspiring and beautiful when we did it the first time that we stood up and said, Listen, we actually don't want to work with this company anymore.
And we're going to celebrate that this client is no longer in our portfolio because this is not the kind of work that lends to mental health. And so sometimes it's inevitable, and you're like, This is fair company, and it's just the nature of the beast. I think that there's content moderation work out there that's super hard on people.
We touched on it, and we made sure that our team had mental health support and that they had sufficient support structure around them to help navigate that. But it's a difficult thing because, when it comes to content moderation, you can't unsee things, right? If somebody's seen it, then you need to help them process it.
You need to make sure that they're prepared for what they will witness. And how are they going to view humanity after that? So yes, I've seen that.
Derek: It's impressive, isn't it? And I think there's going to be an increasing number of human-in-the-loop services that humans are overseeing in case the computer needs assistance and needs that confirmation. It's going to be a boom in the industry.
Mari: I agree with that. And I think what's fascinating about it is how, at least for my generation, there were a lot of opinions and judgments of people who would play video games for a lot of their lives. And now it's like, huh, those skills are going to pay off.
Derek: Speaking more broadly, I mean, you clearly have a distinct interest in the welfare of staff and their wellbeing, and you're a B Corp, and we're in an industry where generally a lot of people regard outsourcing as being on the unethical spectrum. And in fact, our two companies collaborated with the outsourcing impact report to identify incredible examples of people doing incredible things for communities and to provide a body of evidence against people thinking that outsourcing is generally mistreating people or unethical.
And I think anyone who has spent any time in the industry sees exactly the opposite: that it's an incredible economic boom and opportunity for the communities and the employees and provides good careers and good opportunities.
Through our B Corp connections, we got connected to think tanks and universities, and we supported the research. And so we connected with, I think we worked with, IBON, which was a think tank in the Philippines, agreed on a methodology, and determined what a living wage should be in Manila. And it was based on an individual being able to support a family of, I'm going to lie now, I don't remember the size of the family, but support themselves and their children with housing, education, and basic medical needs.
We determined that, and then we very quickly made a commitment to not have anybody on our team earn below that living wage. So we made that living wage our minimum wage in our company. And it was quite controversial in the moment, but it's an example of the work that can be done to make sure that this industry is making the impact like that you mentioned—not just the access to the careers, but if you're thoughtful and intentional about it, like, are you actually getting people out of poverty cycles?
And are you having that impact on generations to come by creating access to meaningful work and careers and paying a fair wage while you're doing it? And so I don't know why we're stuck with the stigma, but I'm here to fix it.
Derek: It's incredible work. And I think you only need to zoom out and see the incredible economic impact that it's had on the Philippines, India, or Mexico, I assume, as well, but it just creates economic activity in economies where there's a dearth of that and a dearth of opportunity. Certainly there's been manufacturing in these offshore locations, but not staffing or professional services.
And so, it provides an incredible opportunity. And then, like anything, the industry starts out at very basic levels, doing basic functions, but after one or two generations, they're highly sophisticated and doing incredible stuff. And there's deep levels of executive talent that have come up since then. It's very powerful stuff, but it's hard for people to see that.
Mari: It is quite complex. I think an example that comes to mind is that we have one of our clients, and they've been with us for six years. It's Urban Stems, and they are a flower delivery company, and we have this crazy seasonality for them, obviously on Mother's Day and Valentine's Day.
And it's been a beautiful learning curve with them. So we've walked a long path with them, and I had a super inspiring conversation just a couple of weeks ago with Laura, our point of contact there, and their customer support team. She's one of the trailblazers with Zendesk AI, and she has successfully implemented Zendesk AI to reduce the seasonality of the seasonal team that she needs over these intense periods by at least 30 to 40 percent.
And the numbers that she shares about what she's achieved are really inspiring about how much more efficient we can be by working with AI. What was inspiring to me when you talk about individuals building a career in these industries is that three or four of the team members that helped them set this up are now working in the back end of Zendesk AI and are training the bot and doing the work of training the bot, monitoring what's implemented so that if something doesn't work the way it's supposed to, they can roll it back.
They all grew up in their customer support team with Boldr, and she could be, she could pull, she could draw a direct line between the value of somebody who has worked in the queue for like a year, at least being in the best possible position to be able to train the AI bots, to monitor them, and to continue to be the human in the loop as they elevate their skill sets and they go from the mundane copy-paste work to the ones that are managing the automation of that work. I think it's a pretty beautiful arc in an individual's career, and it's the future of outsourcing and of customer support, at least.
Derek: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I see countless examples of people. Obviously, there are endless examples of people who start as agents, then build a career, and then they're, potentially, the CEO or an executive level of a BPO, and build very, very good, respectable, highly paid careers. But there's also the outliers that start as agents and then go and start their own outsourcing firm, and now they have hundreds of staff—well, thousands of staff themselves.
Like, and again, that's the economic machine, isn't it? It's capitalism at its best, where it's not just servitude and serfdom; it's actually kind of lifting up every player within the economy.
Mari: It's something full. We don't get to choose our destiny, and it can go in multiple directions. So I am confident that there will always be humans in the loop in this process and that there'll always be a need for finding talent in these markets.
And so fundamentally, the business model isn't threatened, but that it's going to change, that the type of work that's being done is going to change, and that the way that we approach that work is going to change. And so for us, it's getting our team ready to do exactly what I described with this client, being ready to move from being the individual that answers all the tickets to being in a position to train the technology, to manage the technology, and to be that layer of oversight that in this moment is still necessary. I believe that it's going to be necessary for a while.
I'm assuming that there's a future. I could picture that there's a future where it's fully automated, humans are our role, and it shifts over time. But I think what's important to hear is that, as incredible as the results are that this individual had with Zendesk AI, that took, I think, six months of preparation.
And that was a significant time and energy investment with engineers from Zendesk working with them, with them having, I think, a few people dedicated to getting this set up for success. So when you hear things like, Oh, it's just plug and play, you can just flick a switch and it's magically going to take work away or automate work. I think people need to be wary of those situations and just recognize that there is still a lot of work that goes into setting these things up for success, but the opportunity is a hundred percent there and is going to disrupt our industry.
And I am hoping and trusting that it's going to disrupt it for the better and that it's going to create more meaningful work for individuals as this evolves.
Derek: I get the sense that outsourcing call centers used to be a technological backwater, and now it really seems to be right at the forefront. To be in this industry, you've got to be capable of navigating all these tools and harnessing all of the power, and everyone expects you to be omnichannel in everything. And I'm sure it wasn't. I don't know if every industry feels like that, whether every industry is saying, Gosh, there's a lot of technology that we're having to keep up with, but it certainly seems to be the case in outsourcing, in offshoring.
Mari: Yeah, I agree. And it's a lot to keep up with, and it's a lot to navigate and to really understand, like, what is for realsies here? Like, what is real, and what is smoke and mirrors?
It's a lot to wade through to figure out what's going to work because there are so many opportunistic startups out there, and I think we need to be careful to wade through them. I trust the big guys to figure this out. I know that Zendesk is doing a great job, and if I look at the progress that they've made and the progress they still have to make, it really puts into question for me some of the startups, that is, the claims that they're making seem a little bit naive in this moment.
I do believe that what they're saying is going to be true and that it's going to happen quickly, but we're not quite there yet. Not quite.
Derek: I agree. There's a lot of noise, and I don't think it serves you to be too early an adopter; just kind of hang back a little bit and wait for these tools to be proven. I don't know if you remember the whole buzz around chatbots; it was pre-AI, but you could program them, and there was such a buzz maybe seven years ago, but they were useless.
They were basically like IVRs. You just have to program them with set answers, and they were just absolutely useless, but obviously AI is going to be a lot different. The LLMs are going to be a lot different, but there are these hype cycles, and often they don't necessarily live up to what they promise.
Mari Parker: I think a part of that hype is that there's not a reality check of the work that goes into setting these up for success, and something that I'm really excited about is that we just hired; this is the first time in our history to date where we were in a position to actually hire one of our clients. We had a team member or a client who was very effective at implementing the chatbots and the automation at their organization over time, and they've joined us as part of our leading our implementation team and helping us set up some professional services around being able to support clients with that. And what I love about working with this gentleman, Chad, is that he is very real about the work that it takes to set those things up for success because they're not really overselling the potential of them; they're just underselling the work that goes into making them reach their full potential. How do you create or set up this automation so that it actually works?
Having a thorough knowledge database that actually represents every product update and is up-to-date, accurate, and clean is not a small piece of work. So yeah, I hear you. There's the hype, and then there's just the negligence of understanding the work that goes into it, and I'm excited for us to be in a position to help some of these clients and support teams through that.
Derek: Scary times, fascinating times, exciting times, Mari. Well, congratulations anyway, incredible growth, and give my best to David, and congratulations for reaching such growth, and it's a big team now, and you've done that with a solid eye on your own cultural and ethical stance, which is really, really refreshing for the industry and any industry to be honest, so congratulations.
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And if you want to explore further into this podcast, visit the homepage of The Outsource Accelerator Podcast with Derek Gallimore.